I always thought that Intel was what kept AMD in place being a cool producer of linux-friendly components, so I pretty much dread the day AMD gets to be free from the shackles of competition.
The competition has been a boon for us plebe users. And I would expect AMD to continue be Linux friendly if for no other reason it costs them very little to nothing. And they aren’t as intertwined with Microsoft as Intel has been for decades.
ARM has had decades in the oven, x86 has had almost half a century, while RISC-V manufacturing and ISA development has been generally available only a couple of years.
The fact is if there isn’t a big push by some major vendor - or some nation state, then chances are it’ll develop slower than the previously mentioned ISAs.
From design, to testing, to prefab, to packaging, it’s all combined just a single step of the journey to improving yield and performance.
ARM is unfortunately the current trajectory, with Qualcomm, Apple and now NVIDIA leading the charge - which doesn’t bode well, simply because you won’t know what the hell the firmware do.
We could truly use some market disruption in this space and RISC-V, being an open ISA, would be the safest bet for digital sovereignty and user autonomy - but apparently those things are only important on paper.
Can we make our own RISC-V chips like using FPGAs or something? Or would that be infinitely less robust than anything purpose-built by industry?
Chinese manufacturers seem to offer plenty of options for RISC-V MCUs and raspberrypi knockoffs, but they seem to be always sold out or they don’t ship to my country
The ESP32 series have already switched to RISC-V for most models and many other microcontrollers has too. There’s not a lot in the laptop/desktop territory but with enough incentives it’s gonna happen
Oh ya, the C3 and I think the C5. Not sure what the current versions are but if they’re in esp32’s then I guess that’s pretty main stream, just nowhere near a computer processor just yet.
Are the RISC-V ESP32’s cheaper than that ARM ones?
Maybe if we all buy RISC-V microprocessors then somebody somewhere will see a little blip in market demand and have the genius idea of producing more full 64-bit RISC-V chips
I see. They’re a little cheaper if you solder them yourself though. Of course soldering 128 leads is no small project and requires some precision. But it’s way cheaper than buying pre-soldered breakout boards.
Sorry, but AMD stopped pretending to be giving any fucks about the little guy. Lisa has been visiting those Trump AI dinner events. AMD is all in on producing AI hardware first and consumer hardware second.
Well yeah because that is a near monopoly in Taiwan with TSMC. It is a supply chain and every part in that chain is just as valuable. There is a serious presence of Europe/The Netherlands in the form of ASML in the chip market. It is one of the bargaining chips of the Dutch government when it deals with the United States.
Isn’t that just cope, to an extent? Yes, ASML is key to advanced semiconductors, but in a conflict or crisis that disrupts supply chains, who is going to run dry quicker - the ones able to build the thing that’s needed for building fabs, or the ones who actually operate working fabs? My money is on the latter :/
Also, just because ASML is currently the only one capable of building EUV systems, does not mean it’s guaranteed to stay that way forever. The Chinese sure are trying to follow suit…
These are valid worries, never claimed those weren’t the case. However, saying Europe has “no presence in that market” is also not true, the presence is significant.
Strategically it would be smart to have working fabs in Europe too, it would just take a lot of time and investment. America already started working on it (if I remember correctly) and China is already closing in…
Fair, the world is rather nuanced after all. And you’re right, there is indeed some presence there. I’m not convinced every part of the supply chain holds equal value, but that’s subjective, I suppose.
Strategically it would be smart to have working fabs in Europe too, it would just take a lot of time and investment. America already started working on it (if I remember correctly) and China is already closing in…
Yeah, I wish. Our (=German) previous minister of economic affairs tried doing that, but a combination of Intel (maybe not the best choice in hindsight, but I don’t blame him for that) and the government getting replaced by the current one lead by our beloved Friedrich Merz (yay Neoliberalism) put a stop to that for the foreseeable future. At least we still have some semiconductor manufacturing in Europe, that should make any potential catching up much easier than it otherwise would be.
In the case of a war, it would take just one drone to stop production for a very long time in one factory. Factories are big fat juicy targets that can’t move.
a) I seriously doubt it would be that simple, factories typically don’t stop production like that after a single hit (Perun talked about it recently). And even if a semiconductor fab was that brittle in and of itself, sophisticated air defense and a location deep inside, say, European or Chinese mainland might disagree with this notion. And if one really wanted to, it would be possible to move production underground.
b) ‘Conflict’ is what I wrote, not (hot) war. Owning and running semiconductor fabs domestically might well be indispensable in a cold/trade war.
There ain’t no difference between the smell of dead bodies in the sun in a “conflict” or a “war”.
And yes infrastructure IS that brittle. Just ask the Russians about Ukrainian drone attacks. And there is NO place on this earth that a missile can’t reach.
Good bread can be had anywhere. Even in your own kitchen. The best bread I ever had was baked under the crudest of conditions with the barest of utensils and then baked on a hot rock heated in a fire.
At least Arm is British. Their instruction sets keep getting more popular.
Though I admit, it’s a little hard for me to estimate how much of a contribution the Arm intellectual property makes to something like an Apple M5 CPU, or Nvidia Grace CPU.
I own Irish stock! JamesHardie. I used to have more exposure to a few other european companies but that was a few years ago and cant think of what they were off hand.
I always thought that Intel was what kept AMD in place being a cool producer of linux-friendly components, so I pretty much dread the day AMD gets to be free from the shackles of competition.
The competition has been a boon for us plebe users. And I would expect AMD to continue be Linux friendly if for no other reason it costs them very little to nothing. And they aren’t as intertwined with Microsoft as Intel has been for decades.
I’m keeping an eye on the RISC-V space. Not far off now… I hope
Unrelated to the topic discussed, but I absolutely hate that GIF’s ability to spike my anticipation and never pay it off.
You have to watch just a little longer - trust me!
That’s what a gif edging looks like
Stolen!
I would never download a car!
Having beheld the AI slop on Makers World, I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Hack the planet!!!
I can’t believe those two got married.
Pretty far off but China has some nice manufacturers…or they would if AI didn’t exist.
This is generally the problem with ISAs.
ARM has had decades in the oven, x86 has had almost half a century, while RISC-V manufacturing and ISA development has been generally available only a couple of years.
The fact is if there isn’t a big push by some major vendor - or some nation state, then chances are it’ll develop slower than the previously mentioned ISAs.
From design, to testing, to prefab, to packaging, it’s all combined just a single step of the journey to improving yield and performance.
ARM is unfortunately the current trajectory, with Qualcomm, Apple and now NVIDIA leading the charge - which doesn’t bode well, simply because you won’t know what the hell the firmware do.
We could truly use some market disruption in this space and RISC-V, being an open ISA, would be the safest bet for digital sovereignty and user autonomy - but apparently those things are only important on paper.
Can we make our own RISC-V chips like using FPGAs or something? Or would that be infinitely less robust than anything purpose-built by industry?
Chinese manufacturers seem to offer plenty of options for RISC-V MCUs and raspberrypi knockoffs, but they seem to be always sold out or they don’t ship to my country
The ESP32 series have already switched to RISC-V for most models and many other microcontrollers has too. There’s not a lot in the laptop/desktop territory but with enough incentives it’s gonna happen
Oh ya, the C3 and I think the C5. Not sure what the current versions are but if they’re in esp32’s then I guess that’s pretty main stream, just nowhere near a computer processor just yet.
Are the RISC-V ESP32’s cheaper than that ARM ones?
Maybe if we all buy RISC-V microprocessors then somebody somewhere will see a little blip in market demand and have the genius idea of producing more full 64-bit RISC-V chips
You could always make your own chips
Ohh, I’m saving that one! Thanks
FPGAs are going to be way more expensive. It’s possible, but the cost-to-performance ratio would be abysmal.
I see. They’re a little cheaper if you solder them yourself though. Of course soldering 128 leads is no small project and requires some precision. But it’s way cheaper than buying pre-soldered breakout boards.
I feel like the ball is only just now rolling for ARM… and RISC-V is WAAAY behind that.
Sorry, but AMD stopped pretending to be giving any fucks about the little guy. Lisa has been visiting those Trump AI dinner events. AMD is all in on producing AI hardware first and consumer hardware second.
As an European I’m ashamed that we have 0 presence in this market
Not true. The Netherlands has ASML, sort of a monopoly on the manufacturing of semiconductor machines.
Yeah but no actual semiconductors made here.
Well yeah because that is a near monopoly in Taiwan with TSMC. It is a supply chain and every part in that chain is just as valuable. There is a serious presence of Europe/The Netherlands in the form of ASML in the chip market. It is one of the bargaining chips of the Dutch government when it deals with the United States.
Isn’t that just cope, to an extent? Yes, ASML is key to advanced semiconductors, but in a conflict or crisis that disrupts supply chains, who is going to run dry quicker - the ones able to build the thing that’s needed for building fabs, or the ones who actually operate working fabs? My money is on the latter :/
Also, just because ASML is currently the only one capable of building EUV systems, does not mean it’s guaranteed to stay that way forever. The Chinese sure are trying to follow suit…
These are valid worries, never claimed those weren’t the case. However, saying Europe has “no presence in that market” is also not true, the presence is significant.
Strategically it would be smart to have working fabs in Europe too, it would just take a lot of time and investment. America already started working on it (if I remember correctly) and China is already closing in…
Fair, the world is rather nuanced after all. And you’re right, there is indeed some presence there. I’m not convinced every part of the supply chain holds equal value, but that’s subjective, I suppose.
Yeah, I wish. Our (=German) previous minister of economic affairs tried doing that, but a combination of Intel (maybe not the best choice in hindsight, but I don’t blame him for that) and the government getting replaced by the current one lead by our beloved Friedrich Merz (yay Neoliberalism) put a stop to that for the foreseeable future. At least we still have some semiconductor manufacturing in Europe, that should make any potential catching up much easier than it otherwise would be.
In the case of a war, it would take just one drone to stop production for a very long time in one factory. Factories are big fat juicy targets that can’t move.
a) I seriously doubt it would be that simple, factories typically don’t stop production like that after a single hit (Perun talked about it recently). And even if a semiconductor fab was that brittle in and of itself, sophisticated air defense and a location deep inside, say, European or Chinese mainland might disagree with this notion. And if one really wanted to, it would be possible to move production underground.
b) ‘Conflict’ is what I wrote, not (hot) war. Owning and running semiconductor fabs domestically might well be indispensable in a cold/trade war.
There ain’t no difference between the smell of dead bodies in the sun in a “conflict” or a “war”.
And yes infrastructure IS that brittle. Just ask the Russians about Ukrainian drone attacks. And there is NO place on this earth that a missile can’t reach.
It’s okay. Your continent’s specialty is cheesemaking. And bread. You guys make good bread.
Good bread can be had anywhere. Even in your own kitchen. The best bread I ever had was baked under the crudest of conditions with the barest of utensils and then baked on a hot rock heated in a fire.
Now cheese on the other hand…
At least cheese and bread isn’t even on the same playing field in terms of evil.
I don’t know. Have you ever eaten Wonder Bread or the bread they use for subway sandwiches? If that ain’t evil and vile, I don’t know what is.
At least Arm is British. Their instruction sets keep getting more popular.
Though I admit, it’s a little hard for me to estimate how much of a contribution the Arm intellectual property makes to something like an Apple M5 CPU, or Nvidia Grace CPU.
For x86? I mean, you’d have to suck intels dick for a license. Why not just get NXP to produce desktop ARM chips.
Yeah that’s the point, why is nothing of this happening
I own Irish stock! JamesHardie. I used to have more exposure to a few other european companies but that was a few years ago and cant think of what they were off hand.
x86 is a dead-end architecture. It can be emulated in software by cheaper, lower-power architectures and live on as a wart.